Israel - Lebanon

[Cono]

Actually, one can compare this current war on terrorism to WWII and any other war for that matter. All are conflicts between human beings with incompatible objectives where both soldiers and innocents were killed. And, if you were to really go back and examine the situation prior and during WWII and any other war, I'd bet the lines weren't so clear then either. Let’s take WWII. If memory serves, WWII started in Sept. ’39. Where was the U.S.? Certainly not on the frontlines. We were sitting back here behind two oceans busy being isolationists (the hippy types of the day). We were content with sitting back here singing Kumbaya very much the same way we were in Aug. ’01. Why? Because the lines weren’t so clear (Remember such Nazi sympathizers as Charles Lindbergh and Senator Kennedy and many others?). Then, along come a direct attack against the U.S. (i.e. Pearl Harbor). Well, that did it. We going to kick some butt now. And we got everyone marching to the same set of orders and we did indeed kick some ass. And the world is/was better off for it. Fast forward to the present. 9/11 occurred. It is now 2006 and we are still sitting around singing Kumbaya. We’ve got people undermining just about every advantage we have in the intelligence area and objecting and questioning every move our government makes in its efforts against this tyranny. Don’t get me wrong here. I am not for any sort of Bush dictatorship. I just ask that we keep the overall objective in mind.

As I said, one can probably make those connections between the different wars. And why just start with WWI? One can probably go back to the beginning of time and make those connections. If that is so, then one can conclude that it is the natural state of mankind. I don't think that a few wannabe hippy types are going to be very successful attempting to change the very essence of mankind anytime in the near future.

I would agree with you that we are not accomplishing much currently. And, I believe that is because we are fighting with the gloves on and one hand tied behind our backs (i.e. rules imposed upon nation-states by other nation-states) against an enemy with no such restrictions, not to mention having to fight those within our own camp. Yes, that takes resources away from the effort as well. Maybe it's time the gloves come off. They did during WWII (i.e. Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo firebombing, British nighttime bombing, etc.).

Insofar as your second paragraph is concerned, hasn’t compromise already been attempted? Hasn’t Israel made efforts to try and resolve the issues? Granted, they are not perfect by any means, but it does appear to me that they have tried. Yet, they continue to get bombed, rocketed, kidnapped, etc. Insofar as Iraq is concerned, just how many UN resolutions does it take? Remember, playing the waiting game benefits the Axis of Evil and weakens our coalition. Currently, we are stronger than they are. Waiting allows them to gain parity, if not superiority.

War is UGLY. It is man at his very worst and his very best all at the same time. No one relishes it, most especially the soldier. And I can tell you, nothing turns the stomach of a soldier more than seeing an innocent bystander get killed due to his actions or the actions of his adversary. I’d be willing to bet you that the Israeli soldiers feel that way regardless of their religion. I doubt seriously that Hezbolah and Hamas feel the same way.

Like others, I too would rather live in peace. But, if anyone brings war to my doorstep, I’ll give them all the war they can stomach and then I’ll reload.


At any rate, this is it for me. I usually stay out of these discussions because I have very strong feelings in this area.

[Ithica]

If you have very strong feelings let them out. Again, thought I am going to ask how long are you willing to fight? Because there is no winning this. And once again I will remind you that Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Did they at one time have WMD's, the answer is yes. Do you know how I know this. BECAUSE WE GAVE THEM TO SADDAM. And now you are talking about total war. Killing everything is pretty much what it would amount too. As for defending yourself well of course, I am not so naive to think that you can't defend yourself. Afghanistan was part of Al-Queda go in kick ass do what you do. But Iraq was fucking stupid. Again I am not putting blame on any one group, I put it with all of them. If you really think Israel has tried you are crazy. They have carried out raids all the time on Hezbollah, again they aren't plastered all over CNN. Just like when America does something secret, we never know about it. All I hear is keep fighting fighting fighting, which will lead to more fighting. You will not beat them by force, you can only do it through not giving them anything to fight over. Of course, you will still have the radicals where it is never good enough, but they will lose a lot of support if we strive for peace. Yet how will we ever know how peace could come around if we refuse to even consider it. We have got to dismantle them from within.

And if you are going to bring up world war II yes we were isolationists, why b/c we were only at war for a year and we lost over 100,000 men! We didn't want to get involved because the last time we did it wasn't so great. It is easy to look back now and say how things should have been because we know what happened. But at the time you probably wouldn't have been so keen on war then either. You have also got to remember were in the depression during the 30's. Seriously, even the communist party was gaining ground, people were looking for any sort of relief. You are already dirt poor, now you gotta go to war too?

But fine you all want to keep fighting go for it, and the innocent will die with the rest of us, because it won't end.

You gotta admit though kizmet, I am holding my own, not bad for a 20 year old kid eh? I like stirring things up, we have the ability to speak what we think, so do it.

[FuelPump]

Man, this is great, seeing all the different views on the problem.
I tell you what... Let's just smack the shit out of each other till we all agree!

[Reddog]

Man, this is great, seeing all the different views on the problem.
I tell you what... Let's just smack the shit out of each other till we all agree!

Let me know how it works out once ya'll get it sorted

[FuelPump]

Man, this is great, seeing all the different views on the problem.
I tell you what... Let's just smack the shit out of each other till we all agree!

Let me know how it works out once ya'll get it sorted

Just put us all in a room together, give us a choice of pointy sticks, the winner can write whatever they like, and everyone will have to agree with it.

Of course we'd have to have a bunch of UN guys with pretty blue berets to sit back and watch us sort it out.

[Cono]

If you have very strong feelings let them out. Again, thought I am going to ask how long are you willing to fight? Because there is no winning this. And once again I will remind you that Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Did they at one time have WMD's, the answer is yes. Do you know how I know this. BECAUSE WE GAVE THEM TO SADDAM. And now you are talking about total war. Killing everything is pretty much what it would amount too. As for defending yourself well of course, I am not so naive to think that you can't defend yourself. Afghanistan was part of Al-Queda go in kick ass do what you do. But Iraq was fucking stupid. Again I am not putting blame on any one group, I put it with all of them. If you really think Israel has tried you are crazy. They have carried out raids all the time on Hezbollah, again they aren't plastered all over CNN. Just like when America does something secret, we never know about it. All I hear is keep fighting fighting fighting, which will lead to more fighting. You will not beat them by force, you can only do it through not giving them anything to fight over. Of course, you will still have the radicals where it is never good enough, but they will lose a lot of support if we strive for peace. Yet how will we ever know how peace could come around if we refuse to even consider it. We have got to dismantle them from within.

And if you are going to bring up world war II yes we were isolationists, why b/c we were only at war for a year and we lost over 100,000 men! We didn't want to get involved because the last time we did it wasn't so great. It is easy to look back now and say how things should have been because we know what happened. But at the time you probably wouldn't have been so keen on war then either. You have also got to remember were in the depression during the 30's. Seriously, even the communist party was gaining ground, people were looking for any sort of relief. You are already dirt poor, now you gotta go to war too?

But fine you all want to keep fighting go for it, and the innocent will die with the rest of us, because it won't end.

You gotta admit though kizmet, I am holding my own, not bad for a 20 year old kid eh? I like stirring things up, we have the ability to speak what we think, so do it.

Ok, I'm back. I felt I needed to correct some of Ithica's ranting.

Where did I put the responsibility for 9/11 on Iraq?

I do admit that the war in Iraq is an aspect of the overall war on terror which was started quite some time ago, with 9/11 being the major catalyst for the U.S. offensive.

9/11 appears to have been a plan concocted and carried out by the Al Queda, headed by Osama bin Laden who was a guest of the Taliban, who were not recognized as the government of Afghanistan. Yet, we invaded Afghanistan. And you support this? Surely, if you support this, then you would support Israel who was attacked (i.e. border was crossed illegally with Israeli soldiers being killed and kidnapped), who then turns around and attacks an organization harbored in Lebanon AND is an aspect of that country's government.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?


What WMD was sold to Iraq by the U.S.? I need the 5 W's on that, please. I missed that history class.


So, I can compare WWII to the current war on terror?



Fuel, did you have to drag the UN in here? The UN, a fantastic idea that would work if man wasn't involved. Everyone is to blame for that one.

[FuelPump]

Fuel, did you have to drag the UN in here? The UN, a fantastic idea that would work if man wasn't involved. Everyone is to blame for that one.

Actually I have plenty of respect for the troops on the ground with the UN. I even have respect for the organisation on the whole.
They do a tough job, and if they are ineffective, it is only because they are being run by a commitee.

How's the quote go... "the giraffe was a racehorse designed by a committee"...

In an ideal world, the UN would be the cure to all problems like those in the Middle East, an impartial force with no allegiance to any one side, and the power to act.

But the problem is that whenever something needs to be done, there is always at least one member of the security council with a vested interest in the outcome who vetoes the action, or waters down the plan to the point where any action proposed is ineffective at best, and counter productive at worst.

[Cono]

Fuel, did you have to drag the UN in here? The UN, a fantastic idea that would work if man wasn't involved. Everyone is to blame for that one.

Actually I have plenty of respect for the troops on the ground with the UN. I even have respect for the organisation on the whole.
They do a tough job, and if they are ineffective, it is only because they are being run by a commitee.

How's the quote go... "the giraffe was a racehorse designed by a committee"...

In an ideal world, the UN would be the cure to all problems like those in the Middle East, an impartial force with no allegiance to any one side, and the power to act.

But the problem is that whenever something needs to be done, there is always at least one member of the security council with a vested interest in the outcome who vetoes the action, or waters down the plan to the point where any action proposed is ineffective at best, and counter productive at worst.

We're in agreement there.

[FuelPump]

We're in agreement there.

Well that's lucky. I wouldn't want to have to threaten you with a pointy stick!

[Cono]

We're in agreement there.

Well that's lucky. I wouldn't want to have to threaten you with a pointy stick!

Yea, I'd have to beat you over the head with my Remington Express 870 shotgun. Then, I would have Kofi on my case for using excessive force while our friendly revisionist historian, Ithica, rewrites the event to make it seem like I was the aggressor. Then, I would have to go to the World Court located in Den Haag where I would be put on trial for crimes against humanity. But, no worries. At their pace, I would die of old age before any case was made against me. BTW, the pace at which they proceed with their court cases is torturous at best and should be considered a crime against humanity. LOLOLOLOL

[FuelPump]

Well you WOULD be the agressor.

I mean all I did was wave my pointy stick in your general direction in an innocent and friendly manner (in fact I didn't even have a pointy stick, it was a peace flag, screw you if you thought it was a pointy stick), and you went and cracked my skull with your Remington 870, for no reason.
Now it's a fucking holy war!
Don't make me lob some shitty North Korean or Iranian rockets at you!

Just be aware that because you failed to actually declare war, I'm going to ignore the Geneva convention here....

[Ithica]

During the Iran Iraq war we took sides. Those chemical weapons used on Kurds, that was us.

Yeah, bringing out the whole Iraq thing WMD's I will be honest that just kind of came out in the middle of the rant. Shit happens.

Well with Afghanistan, we didn't really have much interest in it before 9/11. Where as with most of the other middle east. Where as with Israel, they are trying to make it look like they were the innocent victim here when we know that is bullshit, their hands are just as dirty as Hezbollah. But I guess that is just my opinion.

[FuelPump]

I wouldn't say that nobody was interested in Afghanistan before 9/11, it's just that it has traditionally been a REALLY tough nut to crack. The Russians found that out, as did the British before them.
If you're going into Afghanistan, you want to have absolute backing behind you.

It has strategic importance as it buffers against Russia.

If you dig up a bit about its history, you'll see that Afghanistan has been pushed, pulled and twisted every which way by a bunch of countries trying to get hold of it. Mainly through diplomatic, and other means (including espionage, foreign aid, support for friendly political parties etc.) as well as through warfare. Before the Soviets invaded, both the US and USSR had been fighting each other over influence there.

Rudyard Kipling (British writer, 1800s) wrote about the British experience in Afghanistan:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

I'm sure the Russians might have had similar things to say about Afghanistan. I hope that our current forces over there do better.

Here's a link to the complete poem anyway. It's quite good (for a poem), about life in the British army at the time.
http://www.everypoet.com/archive/poetry/Rudyard_Kipling/kipling_the_young_british_soldier.htm

[Kizmet]

Wow, this is pretty neat. Lots of differing opinions. That's what makes us so great. We can talk opposite points about a topic and then drink a beer together later.

Yes Ithica, you seem to be holding you own here. I'd watch out for cono though.....once he brings the sheep out.......you'll melt like butter...roflamo.

[Duke2]

It goes with out saying the Arab Nations are Fighters. I Believe I remember it said, according to the News and Soldier Rumor, at that time, that the Japines Soldiers were scared to Death of the Turks, who were then Fighting on our side. ( Allies WWII ) Any way Guys, the only way all of us, in the World, are going to get along, is when we are Dead. he he

I would fight to keep what I have. --- It goes with out saying for me, I love America. I am Dam glad I am an American. I see so maney People crossing our Borders trying to get in Legally and Illigally. They think it is the Land of Milk and Honey. Most of our Ancestors are from other Countrys. They came to get a better life, than they had in their own. A lot came to get away from Opression in their Country. --- ( Yankee Know How ) I feel came from the Different People from different Countrys, that brought their Education, and Skills with them. We, like a lot of other country's have a lot of Muslins, as well as other Nationalties Among us. Russia said they would Counquer us from within. I Wonder about the Muslins that live among us? I know when we were fighting the Japinese after Peral Harbour, the Military and secret service watched the Japinese that lived here at that Time. If History Repeats itself, we will have to do the same if we continue to Fight aginst the Muslins. If I am correct on my History, the Crusades were to stop the advancement of the Muslin Religion. I know we have not only Fought Hitler Germaney, but anything that Represents Communissum. ( Anybody with World Dictator ideas )

I know we aren't perfect ( America ) but I think we have helped to make thw World, a better place to Live. I feel it is known that we like Russia and China, are a Super Power. I tremble to think, what will happen not only to America, but to the Rest of the World, if we Fall. The European Nation are more United than they have ever been. I believe the Euro Dollar is a step in that direction. They talk of one World Order. Does that mean the Rich People of the World will Rule??

The Population of the World, because of the so called Peace, has allowded the Population to be, like it has never been before. -- Is the World -- like a Valcano, about ready to Erupt. ( I don't know ) The Animal Kingdom is controlled by Survival of the Fittest. I always thought that Wars and Rumor of Wars was God's way of controlling our Population?? -- Man will never be satisfied with what he has.

Have a Happy